“Who am I?” is a question that most of us will ask ourselves throughout our lives. Many of us begin that exploration by comparing ourselves to others—who may in turn, be measuring themselves against standards that don’t center our individual and collective humanity. How then, can we figure out who we really are, or take pride in those identities? These are some of the questions that host Jennie Brooks and Jamila Holt, a lead scientist at Booz Allen, explore in this episode. Wondering how “kindness” figures in to all of this, and what this has to do with Queer identity? Tune in to find out!
Want to learn more about the LGBTQ+ experience and allyship at Booz Allen?
Check out:
Jennie Brooks:
Welcome to Booz Allen Hamilton's Unstoppable Together Podcast, a series of stories that unite us and empower each of us to change the world. I'm Jennie Brooks with Booz Allen Hamilton, and I'm passionate about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Please join me in conversation with the diverse group of thought leaders to explore what makes them and all of us unstoppable.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Unstoppable Together Podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Brooks. And today I'm very excited to be joined by Jamila Holt, a lead scientist at Booz Allen. Jamila is a member of the PRIDE Employee community who identifies as queer, though she feels that labels, while elevating visibility, often have the way of being restrictive in their own right, which we'll dig into in a bit. Jamila, welcome to the podcast.
Jamila Holt:
Thank you very much.
Jennie:
Thanks for being here. It is Pride Month. And in celebration of pride, we want to explore the theme of discovery, discovering who we really are and how we can take pride in our identity. Could you open up our conversation today, Jamila, by just sharing a little bit about what that process has been for you and the meaning that you've found in your exploration around identity?
Jamila:
Wow. Okay. Sure. Yeah, that's not a softball, but... How did I come to know myself? I think it was kind of an interesting process. From a small town where everybody's kind of the same. People all get up, have breakfast in the morning with their families, take the kids to school, go home or maybe have a sport or something after school, and then dinner with the family and TV time. So, everything was very normative, like something you might see on TV years ago, decades ago.
It really wasn't until I moved away from home that I began to notice how my own preferences were really more aligned with things that I didn't see growing up. We could step outside of pride for just a second. That ranges from everything from the way I eat, the type of food that I eat, the amount of activity I get, the type of spirituality I engage in, and then, of course, my sexual identity.
Jennie:
Was it intimidating? Was it exciting? Was it sort of like the juxtaposition of small town, normative, this is sort of the picture, and then you're out of that environment, you leave home, and-
Jamila:
Yeah, I would say it was really exciting. It was really exciting.
Jennie:
It was exciting.
Jamila:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was exciting because it was literally just a part of life. In the same way that I was learning that, hey, I'm the type of person who really enjoys being active... Again, this is not something that I was surrounded by growing up. People were active, but it was because they were working. They were manual laborers, factory workers. It was very blue collar for the most part where I'm from. My life wasn't really quite like that. So, for me, physical activity meant an extracurricular. As I got older, it meant I'm taking up something like yoga, or biking, or swimming, or something of that nature, running. I did a lot of running for a while, kayaking.
As I was learning that, gosh, I like to do those things and people where I'm from don't really do a lot of that, I'm learning how to embrace that part of myself. I'm also learning to embrace the fact that I like different types of music and that I prefer women. All of these things are happening together, more of some things at different times than others, but there was certainly a lot of... Okay, here we go. There was a lot of reflection. There was a lot of reflection, and there's a lot of work to really accept who you are. Then, there's a lot of courage to show who you really are to other people, specifically in environments where you kind of stand out. There's not a lot of other people like you.
Exciting in the sense that I am learning about myself and trying out new things, but also kind of scary because I had to really dig up some courage a lot of the time to step out there and show the world who I am.
Jennie:
I'm struck by your sharing about your reflections and different components. If you're willing to share of those reflections, for example, labeling and what your process was or not around that. As I speak with... So, I have a high school son. And as I sort of speak with that generation, the labels sort of are really just not something that they grab. I see much more inclusion and sort fluidity, and embrace, and acceptance, and the label is just a word that doesn't even really get adopted in many ways. So, what were your reflections as you expanded, and you were opening up your identity and reflecting on that? How did any of those components play into it or not?
Jamila:
That's a great question. I'll take a quick step back. When I was in my hometown, I think there was probably one person, maybe two people that I knew who were gay. Their gayness is what we now think of as transgender. I looked at them when I was younger, and I was like, "Oh, well, that's not me, so I'm not gay." Then, I moved away, particularly to this DC area, the DMV. When I got here, everybody that I was in community with said, "Well, what are you? What are you?"
Jennie:
Oh, sort of like, "Which part of the LGBTQIA+ are you?"
Jamila:
Yeah. And even within that, "Are you fem? Are you..." There's all these different ways that people describe each other and themselves. Well, I'm me. I'm just me. What do you mean what am I? Why do I have to pick one of these labels? And they all explain, "Because we're in DC, and, well, you must pick these labels because that's how you become visible. That's how the world knows that lesbians exist, that bisexuals..." whatever the term is. That's how you can be visible for people, and that's really important. That's really important for policy and money, et cetera. All the things, rights. I'm like, "Oh, okay."
Then I realized that after years of trying to be this label, I realized that I was trying to be the label because the label is actually restrictive. The label is very convenient for those who may not be aware, but it's literally a box and...
Jennie:
It's just a different box.
Jamila:
It's a different box, and it limits people's view of who we are. They say, "Oh, you're a lesbian." Just for example, right?
Jennie:
Right.
Jamila:
Because as you mentioned, I identify as queer. They say, "Oh, you're a lesbian. That means..." And they have a whole series of boxes that they can check because that's what they think of as a lesbian, right?
Jennie:
Mm-hmm.
Jamila:
So, for me, I settled on queer because people have to say, "Well, what does that mean?" Because it doesn't really... It's fluid by nature. It's a blob. It's not a box. Perhaps it even moves. Is it an amoeba perhaps that is just kind of flowing through? It forces engagement. It forces people to ask the question, "What does that mean?" And, ultimately, to get to know me as an individual, which we all are.
Jennie:
I want to ask you... I hope it's not an uncomfortable question.
Jamila:
Okay.
Jennie:
As you gravitated toward the label queer, what was inspiring, and exciting, and great about that? And/or were there still components that were like, "Well, it's just another box, but at least it's more of the box I identify with"? The reason I'm asking that is because I think we still find people who are processing or working through identity. And/or to your point earlier, they may not be as comfortable with saying, "That's my identity," or "That's the label." Just what you said and during their exploration. What was either freeing about that identity or what was still constraining? How do you think about it, your reflections on the journey and where you are today with it?
Jamila:
Yeah. You actually hit the nail on the head. You said free, and that's exactly what it was. To me, saying queer is the equivalent of saying people. I'm queer. Somebody else might say, "I'm a person."
Then, you have this like, "Oh, well, I know what a person is." But then you go, "Well, wait. What is queer?" Just as you have to engage with any specific individual to learn who they are or any plant or, really, anything on the planet... There is nothing that is identical on this planet. Twins are born. They have unique fingerprints. There's not a single blade of grass that's the same as any other blade of grass. There's not a single apple that is exactly the same as some other apple.
To say queer allows people to say, "Oh, okay. Well, that's a person." They're not what we think of as normative, but I still don't know anything about this person. I still have to engage with her and find out exactly who she is. And that's incredibly freeing. It's a way to say, "Yes, I am here with an identity, and you still must connect with me in order to understand exactly who I am," in the same way that you have to connect with every other thing on this planet. You have to develop a relationship with it, and it will be unique.
Jennie:
I love that. All right, Jamila. So, when I ask you, when you say, "Well, I'm the distinct blade of grass. I am the flower that is different from every other flower-"
Jamila:
Yes.
Jennie:
... and you share with us that you identify as queer, what are the words for you when you say, "This is me"? What are the words that come to mind?
Jamila:Wow. Well, I talked a little bit about it. I talked about the way I like to engage physically with the world. I'm very active. I'm reflective. I practice mindfulness. I've completed yoga teacher training. I love being outdoors. Let's see. What else?
I think I'm a kind teacher, I think. I was an educator for a time before I came to Booz Allen, and I hold firm to the tradition of education, and teaching, and training, and learning, and development, and growth. That is a core tenet of who I am and how I move through the world. I mentioned kindness. I think it's an amazing practice to be kind. It's not something that we are immersed in.
If we turn on the television and we go to anything, for the most part, the number one thing we see is usually not kindness. We don't have tons of models of how to be kind, which means that there has to be a lot of exploration around how to practice this way of being and then trying it out and seeing what that's like in the world, and then figuring out ways to institutionalize that, to develop communities around it.
Jennie:
I love that.
Jamila:
Thank you. Thank you.
Jennie:
I love that. Then, I want to ask you, for those listening who may be exploring their identity and/or for those who are allies who are trying to learn more about those exploring queer identity, and then for... You mentioned sort of the institutions of the organizations. What would you offer for those listening to think about and just better understand or to share with them around that exploration process, which you've shared a fair amount about? What are the things that allies should be aware of, and how do organizations like Booz Allen figure into those navigating, in this case, queer identity? I know it's a loaded question.
Jamila:
Yeah. Yeah, that's another hard one. Let's see.
Jennie:
Teach us, Jamila. Teach us.
Jamila:
Oh, you got it. Here I go. Let's see. I think the thing that maybe people are not aware of and that I would like to bring to awareness is that there is a tremendous amount of pressure to be a certain way, whether that's to perform at a certain level, whether that's to look a certain way. I have multiple identities. We've only talked about one today. And to sound a certain way.
These expectations, largely unspoken, are what make institutions what they are. When we think about what an ally or someone who is exploring their identity should know is that it requires a tremendous amount of reflection and awareness of these unspoken rules in order to recognize which ones they're adopting unknowingly, and then to be able to shed them in such a way that they can function freely and be visible and also feel safe.
For the allies, that means as people are unpacking these things, there must be support. We talked about kindness a little bit. So, there's got to be like, "Oh, wait. This person perhaps is trying something new." And this is for anyone, even outside the queer community. Anyone who notices that they're behaving in a way that is simply in line with unspoken expectations can reflect on that and then say, "Hey, person, self, I'm going to now shed this thing that I'm doing only because it's part of this environment and do what is actually me. Also, hey, environment, could you support me while I try on my own self?" I hope that is clear. Is that clear?
Jennie:
Do you have specific examples that you'd be willing to share that come to mind? I mean, as you were talking, I'm thinking about things like code switching or... Is that an example of...
Jamila:
That's a classic example. I think another one is hair, right?
Jennie:
Yes.
Jamila:
Particularly for Black women, or maybe even Black people in general, hair is a big deal. We just recently had the CROWN Act, and so we've... What hair looks like in a corporate space, in a perhaps old school corporate space or a non-accepting corporate space, that Black hair is going to be straightened. That Black hair is not going to be very long if it is not straightened.
It takes a tremendous amount of courage to say, "Okay. Well, that's not how my hair grows out of my head. In order to straighten, could cause cancer." There's a big, big, big lawsuit couple years ago for everybody who used the straightener. It caused a lot of cancer and stuff. To make the choice to say, "I can conform to these unspoken rules and get sick, or I can be who I am and maybe not get promoted." Again, there's that request for, "Hey, this is actually who I am. Can you support me as I try on who I am?" Then, also the courage to want to do it. I'll give you another example. In the spirit of pride, okay?
Jennie:
Yes.
Jamila:
I identify as queer. I rarely, rarely wear dresses, or heels, or, I don't know, anything's going to hurt my feet. I'll just say it like that. Comfort first. Comfort is first. To step into a space where women look a certain way and not look that way... I recently cut my hair. My hair used to be very long, and now it's very, very short. To step into a place with very, very short hair with a pants suit on, and very comfortable, business appropriate shoes, that takes a lot of courage. And to still show up with a smile and what I think... I still think I have pretty feminine energy.
I think people really have to go like, "Hey, what do we have in front of us here?" I feel like my presence a lot of the time is, quite frankly, forcing people to engage with some biases they may have, you know?
Jennie:
Mm-hmm. On that note, have you ever had along the way specific conversations that you remember with people either through your own process and exploration or for someone, a colleague or a friend, sort of that breakthrough conversation where like, "Yeah, I'm here in my Converse tennis shoes. They're comfortable. Bring it," whatever, where you confronted that? Because that can be an intimidating kind of conversation that I think to your point-
Jamila:
Can I call out a superstar?
Jennie:
Please.
Jamila:
Booz Allen had a marketing director.
Jennie:
Yes.
Jamila:
Oh, my gosh. He was also the head of GLOBE, what used to be called GLOBE (GLOBE +, now the Pride EC, ed.).
Jennie:
Yes.
Jamila:
This guy would have his makeup on, and his nails, and his capes, and his heels, and his glitter and whatever else. He even worked in the Pentagon. I was in the Pentagon for a while, too. I talked to him about, "How did you feel? How was that? What was it like? Did you feel safe?" Really, it's all about safety, right?
Jennie:
Right.
Jamila:
Did you feel safe? He was like, "Absolutely. You show up, and you be yourself. This is what we are, and this is what we do." That was so instrumental.
I think I met him probably my first year at Booz Allen. He was absolutely... He had such a big impact on my level of comfort moving through this organization, knowing that... Like I said, I think he was director. He was a very, very high position in the firm. It let me know that it was really okay to be myself in this space.
Jennie:
Right. That [inaudible 00:22:22].
Jamila:
And even in the [inaudible 00:22:22] space.
Jennie:
Right.
Jamila:
Yeah.
Jennie:
At the end of every podcast, we invite our guests to share final thoughts with our audience. What else would you like to leave our audience with today?
Jamila:
Just to be kind to themselves through the process. Because it can be really scary. I think it's really scary even if you're not queer, just to be yourself in any space.
Jennie:
Right. To find your voice, yes?
Jamila:
Yeah.
Jennie:
Yeah. Right.
Jamila:
So, to be very patient with yourself, with other people always. Anytime you're dealing with anyone else, just try your very best. Just assume that they're doing their best. Really, truly assume that they're doing their best. And be kind to oneself. I think part of that exploration of kindness thing is what does that even mean to be kind to myself. I think in our very consumer-driven culture, being kind means to go buy something nice for yourself or whatever, but there's a lot of internal dialogue that usually we're not aware of, and so start to become aware of that. And be really kind. Make sure that that dialogue is kind and loving towards oneself. That really helps with making sure you're being kind to someone else, particularly those who we're different from, so us queer folks.
The entire point of identifying as queer was to really inspire each individual to reflect on how they show up authentically. The entire point of celebrating pride is to step out into the world fully self-expressed. The queer label is a label that allows for a lot of the other labels that we have to kind of melt away.
Some of those other labels are labels like woman. What does it mean to be a woman? We tend to think of women as soft, and feminine even, and mothers. Well, obviously mothers, but mothers in the sense that there will be children and there will be a marriage. We think of men as a label. We think of strong, and breadwinners, and some other labels that we use a lot and have very specific boxes, labels like whiteness, and Blackness.
Again, queer is a label still, but it's a label that creates space, and it's a label that invites curiosity, not just for the person who adopts the label but for everyone who notices or hears that label.
The invitation is to be curious, be curious about the labels, be curious about how we express those labels. Then, within that curiosity, we can find kindness towards ourselves. Once we recognize which of these things are really us and which are not, we can be more kind to ourselves. Then, that, of course, allows us to be more kind to other people.
Jennie:
Jamila, it's been really special listening to today.
Jamila:
Thank you.
Jennie:
One of my greatest takeaways has really been when you describe your identity as queer, the first 17 things you list are running, and the environment, and all of these other things. I really love how you helped us explore the sense of self, and the journey for getting there, and things to think about in the workplace. Thank you.
Jamila:
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
Jennie:
Thanks for listening. Visit careers.boozallen.com to learn how you can be unstoppable with Booz Allen. Be the future. Work with us. The world can't wait.