Host Jennie Brooks joins three members of GLOBE+, the firm's LGBTQ+ business resource group: Natasha Christensen, Lianna Newman, and Craig Wainner. Together, they examine the difference between active and performative allyship, the importance of pronouns, and the idea of being an ally within your own community.
00:00:01 Jennie Brooks
Welcome to Booz Allen Hamilton’s Unstoppable together podcast. A series of stories that unite us and empower each of us to change the world. I'm Jennie Brooks with Booz Allen Hamilton and I'm passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Please join me in conversation with a diverse group of thought leaders to explore what makes them and all of us unstoppable.
00:00:27 Jennie Brooks
Hello everyone and welcome to the Unstoppable Together podcast. I'm Jennie Brooks and I'm excited today to be joined by members of Booz Allen GLOBE+ Business Resource Group, which represents the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, nonbinary, queer, and questioning employees at Booz Allen. In today's episode we'll be diving further into allyship, and specifically what being an ally in our own communities means. Please join me in welcoming Natasha Christensen, Craig Wainner and Leanna Newman.
00:00:59 Jennie Brooks
Each of them bring their unique identities and life experiences to the table and I'm excited to learn more through this discussion. Today, first, let's open by asking each of you to introduce yourselves. Provide us with your preferred pronouns and help us define what an ally means to you, Natasha?
00:01:18 Natasha Christensen
Hi, my name is Natasha Christensen. My pronouns are she and her. I define allyship and being an ally as being someone whose words aligned to my actions as it concerns seeking to include, be an inclusive person and to emphasize issues that really matter to me and that matter to others. So I think of it as being an active advocate. Almost knowing that regardless of what group it is about or what issue it is about, if I say that I value human rights, then I'm an active advocate for that.
00:01:56 Natasha Christensen
If I say that I value social justice that I'm an active advocate for that, and that means for any group that is affected or impacted by that, any group that's infected or impacted by inequities. These and I have a big problem with performative measures of being an advocate and for individuals and and communities that tend to jump on the bandwagon when something is trending almost, and something seems like I have to make a statement but. Then the statement doesn't align with the actions that they're taking to serve to benefit and support those individuals who are being marginalized or deeply impacted by whatever they're making a statement about.
00:02:41 Natasha Christensen
So my definition of being an ally is showing and doing what I can to learn and be as actively engaged as possible.
00:02:53 Jennie Brooks
Thank you, can you give me an example of performative measures?
00:03:00 Natasha Christensen
People who were very vocal in certain instances about human rights abuses are suddenly very silent. So when you've established that your organization or that you as an individual value. The human rights of another human race in general. And then you go silent. I think that that's one example of performative nature. When we saw this past year so much going on within the African-American community, which I'm a part of and so much happening against. Black and brown people, there were a lot of efforts to put a black box on your social media to show that Black Lives Matter, but then to basically say in every instance when something came up that tried to diminish or dismiss Black lives left and right. There were so many efforts by companies to suddenly say, we value inclusivity. We value the rights, whether we're seeing what's going on within the community and where they would set up listening sessions and things like that. But then there's no action on the back end to make sure that they're creating space and opportunity to combat inequities within their own organizations with and within their own workspace.
00:04:14 Jennie Brooks
Thank you so active allyship, emphasis perhaps on the action. Combined with allyship. OK, thank you. Craig welcome to the podcast.
00:04:28 Craig Wainner
Thank you, my name is Craig Wainner I am an Associate in the pricing and estimating services under financial services. Recently moved internal from client side. I am the current director of membership for GLOBE+. Recently started our term and I've been with the firm for almost three years now. I was originally brought in by GLOBE+ during Pride Month events and activities. So it's a very close place to my heart.
00:04:51 Craig Wainner
My preferred pronouns are he and him and allyship and allies to me being an ally is providing support in any form to someone who has a different identity or life perspective from your own. And in particular, I like to make a distinction between passive and active allyship, so it lends really well to Natasha’s concepts. To me, passive is, I think something a lot more of us are familiar with and had been kind of the norm for a long time. It's, you know, casual, reactive, off hand, and more often than not, convenient.
00:05:24 Craig Wainner
And I think the past year has really elevated the awareness and made a necessity of active allyship where it's very intentional. People are being proactive about their efforts, bought word and deed, and oftentimes requires effort on people parts. Having hard conversations is not easy. Doing something that's unpopular is not easy, but you know, there's almost like an exigence where this has to happen. Now it's that moment in history.
00:05:52 Jennie Brooks
Craig, do you have notable experiences particularly? Perhaps in the last year or before, around being an ally or receiving allyship?
00:06:03 Craig Wainner
You know it's really interesting. I think I bring maybe a perspective that's more common and isn't necessarily easy for some people to share but I would say I was probably more passive ally for a long time and I think that realization and acknowledgment is super important and it means a lot to me 'cause it's like. And you have these people who are your friends, and you suddenly realize that you should have been doing more. And that's really hard, but it's never too late to start. So the past year for me has been a journey to learn the difference of what passive and active allyship looks like. In particular, within our community, you know there's a lot of stigma against people who are bisexual or transgender or queer questioning, and so it's just reconciling with that has been a big focus for me.
00:06:50 Jennie Brooks
Lianna?
00:06:51 Lianna Newman
My name is Lianna Newman and my pronouns are I don't use any no pronouns. I just ask folks sees my first name a little bit of a story behind that. And in my view and an ally is someone who does difficult things when the community that they relied allied too isn't around.
00:07:12 Jennie Brooks
When their community that their ally to isn't around. What do you mean by?
00:07:16 Lianna Newman
I think sometimes allyship can sort of move into a space of being very performative and a true ally can be in a room hear an inappropriate joke. The person who may be the joke would be targeted to isn't in the room, but the ally still speaks up.
00:07:34 Jennie Brooks
OK, thank you. Would you mind sharing with us the story behind not using pronouns - you said there's a bit of a story to that would you be willing to share that with us today?.
00:07:44 Lianna Newman
Yeah, definitely so I came out as nonbinary in either 2014 or 2015. And I've gone to the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference and at that conference I had, you know, like picked up the pronoun thing and I was like, I guess I am she - I don't know? And then I started like seeing all these different variations after attending a session about like what it meant to be nonbinary. A lot of the thoughts and feelings that I had. It was very strange because I was like, oh I thought this was just normal. OK? Well, I guess maybe I'm non-binary. So it started out with they/them pronouns in the workplace I was working at, but I worked with two HR professionals who were English majors and they didn't have an issue telling me that they didn't like they/them pronouns and. So one of them when they have write up my report.
00:08:31 Lianna Newman
Like just like my performance review she used just my name and sort of like a weird passive-aggressive, not using pronouns, but still not misgendering me. And the ironic part about it was that I I like I love my name, it's great. Humble brag, but so I was just like you know what maybe this is something that I'd want to do, and when I had gone to the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference like the following year, I saw someone who walked around with a badge. It said no pronouns and I like inquired a bit and I was like, wait that. I didn't know there's an option. I didn't know there were options. I just thought it's like if you're nonbinary, it’s they, them and so ever since then I've just been using my name and that's been going for since like 2000, probably around 16 I think is gonna make this switch so.
00:09:18 Jennie Brooks
When you see a group of, in this case white people who are coalescing and coming forward and saying, you know Black Lives Matter, or Queer Lives Matter. What is that immediate sense? Natasha?
00:09:33 Natasha Christensen
I admit I tend to roll my eyes a little bit because on the one hand, I want to know where they're coming from with it, because I've found that when people say Black Lives Matter, there tends to be an angle. That they're coming from with it. There tends to be a but afterwards. So I want to know if there's going to be an immediate but afterwards. Or if it's just a full sentence in their mind. Black Lives Matter period. What just happened was totally wrong. None of this makes sense, like people should not have a sense that any time they might encounter police that they might lose their lives, that that should not ever makes sense in anyone's brain. In my mind. So I tend to wonder what their angle is and…
00:10:16 Jennie Brooks
Do you think that will change in the future? Do you think we'll be having a different conversation in three to five years as we look back and you won't be looking for the but?
00:10:26 Natasha Christensen
I grew up in the South, so when it comes to being Black. I'm always looking for a but. It a little bit so, but I do think that there will be more people willing to as I said, stand up when they see something that seems off and be put themselves in a position to be observant of it, and then hold more people accountable. And I hope that we see that growing leaps and bounds from where it is right now, because before if a Black person was pulled over on the side of a road, you'd normally see other Black people stop and be the first one. To slow down and see OK I just want. Slow roll to see what's going on. Make sure if you need anything. I don't know this person, but I'm just making sure that if anything now you'll see a lot of people instantly be like what's going on over there and put themselves into a position of a potential danger, but also to bear witness to something versus just be like that is none of my business. Those are not my people. I'm gonna walk away.
00:11:26 Natasha Christensen
So I do think we've seen a lot of change when it comes to that and we need to see people from outside the Black community be the ones to be the ones to do that as. Well, we can't always be the ones banging our own drum. In order to make any change happen, you need to have people willing to say like no, this is wrong. I'm going to stand in front of you because I know that my unfortunately, I know that as a white person, my body in this current state and environment we're in is of greater value in this context than yours. So if I put myself in front of you, then I'm protecting you in that way.
That needs to change, obviously, and I think that we're seeing more and more of it change as more people are willing to step in and say that Black Lives Matter brown lives matter, trans, lives matter, and seeing the intersectionality of those spaces and say that we are going to stand up for all of it. I think it's going to take a lot of time, but I also think that we're seeing we're seeing less people show up and just say. I don't see color we're seeing a lot more consciousness in terms of what people are saying and and what they mean. And then also what they're doing to put themselves forward. We definitely need more of it. We need a lot more active allyship, but I'm cautiously, optimistic.
00:12:38 Jennie Brooks
And what you share resonates with me. We did a recent conversation on the Ds of deescalating conflict, and for anyone who's interested, you know one of other podcasts and I learned so much in that conversation about different strategies to deescalate and some of what you share align well with what our guest speaker offered during that conversation as well.
And so when we’re looking at when we're talking about allyship. Some of what we are examining is we often think of allyship as something that you can only do for the communities that you're not a part of or don't identify as right can you share with us times your idea of being an ally has expanded or changed. Lianna?
00:13:26 Lianna Newman
A couple things come to mind. Something that I I think is really important is what I mean when I talk about performative is. There are times where you'll see last year is a great example, like people marching in the street demanding justice, but then at the same time engaging in behaviors that are opposite of what they're demanding, and so allyship to me. It's definitely like being strong within one conviction in a way that you're unwavering, no matter what the situation is, and that you're constantly seeking out your own opportunities to learn and grow, because and also being OK with like not knowing everything and not getting it perfect. I think that there's this assumption that if you are claiming allyship to a community, if you even mess up a little bit like your canceled, and that's not the case, like a true ally can like learn from that mistake, own it and then just like use it as a stepping stool to do better.
00:14:18 Lianna Newman
Good example, I was at a many years ago was at a Weight Watchers meeting in Queens, NY and the individual there. She was like teaching the class. Had made some comments around Asian women and there weren't any Asian women in the class, but I did tell her that it was inappropriate and then I just never went back to that meeting. And when I told my mom about it, you know she was that you're not Asian as it doesn't matter and it doesn't matter that anyone was in in the room. But why the comment made me uncomfortable. I could only imagine if someone who was actually directed at had experienced it just little moments and little things like that. I consider that to be allyship.
00:15:00 Jennie Brooks
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's very. It's a great picture for for people to easily grasp. What are the questions that I could have asked so far that I haven't asked around allyship.
00:15:13 Lianna Newman
What does it mean to be and it might sound weird, but like an ally to your own community. When we think about like LGBTQ, sometimes the T gets left out or other folks are aren't educated on it, and so being an ally to the trans community becomes sort of this expectation. But then there's no, it’s like expectation without understanding I guess, and trying to kind of work towards that. So I have worked with people. Who are who are clear? They're not trans, and then trying to kind of explain like why we need them to speak up with someone misgenders me, gets kind of well, they're like, well, I don't want to rock the boat then OK, but like, we’re all a community. I would tip the boat over free so yeah.
00:16:03 Jennie Brooks
At the end of every podcast we give our guests and free space to share their final thoughts with those listening. Craig what are your final thoughts for those listening today.
00:16:13 Craig Wainner
A lot of people. Think about queer issues as being heavily tied into sexuality, something that's very taboo to talk about in a corporate environment. But it is part of being human and Booz always talks about bringing our full selves I. Personally, celebrate being a queer person because I think it's taught me lessons that I would have never learned. It is created who I am as a person. In a much broader sense than I think I could have been otherwise, I would say I'm more introspective, more considerate of others. I've always kind of felt like I can be a diplomat or a bridge between different people speaking different languages, you know, not literal languages necessarily, but you know talking between technical and laypeople. And I think.
00:16:58 Craig Wainner
Because I was able to pass for those who don't know, pass means that you know people perceived me as being straight. I kind of had my feet in both sides and so I was able to see things from different perspectives and really gain an appreciation for why that's so important. That's why intersectionality means so much to me. That's why I think allyship is so important. Uhm, so yeah, being clear is shaped who I am as a person and every possible facet of my life. In so many ways that I think people don't really understand unless you. Really take like a philosophical look at it. And that's what I celebrate.
00:17:36 Jennie Brooks
Thank you. Lianna. What are your thoughts?
00:17:39 Lianna Newman
There's a lot of people who are allies and have done a lot of work and are creating spaces for other allies to come and have those conversations so that they're not putting that onus on the communities they are being allies to, and I think that it's another part of just like doing that work, being responsible for one's own growth. Is to like go and seek out those spaces?
00:18:01 Lianna Newman
A quick example is during everything that happened last year, my partner started a group like a a book discussion. For other white people to talk about all these things going on, I was not involved. I was not even tangentially like asked anything. She, just like when did the work, organized. And I think that that is like a really great example of that issue personally.
00:18:26 Jennie Brooks
Natasha, what are your final words for those listening today?
00:18:32 Natasha Christensen
I've definitely leaned into an embrace more of the intersectionality of who I am as a person and who I am as a queer person is much more in the last, I think year and a half like taking the time. Thanks to COVID to really reflect on it and see where which pockets of space that who I am. Fits into and embracing that more and being much more like vocal about it has been. A great and it's brought a lot of amazing people into my life. I really encourage everybody else to do the same. You don't necessary have to do it as vocally, but just like have. That you know moment to be like says this.
00:19:12 Natasha Christensen
Community or does this thing resonate with me? Does it like that speak to me and if so, reach out to those people who are involved and active and set those connections in place? Because right now I think we're in this great space where people are open to and receptive to hearing from others and having those genuine conversations and being asked somewhat difficult or sensitive questions. Because we're all questioning it, it might be about anything under the sun, but we're all questioning. We all are wondering sort of what's next for us? How can we grow? How can we develop? How can we be more engaged and involved and take our passions to a place of purpose? And I really hope that as we move forward throughout the rest of the year that we see more and more of how we can take our, our passions and our interests into an impactful purpose. And I look forward to seeing what GLOBE does in relation to that, I've been loving the the work to collaborate with the other BRGs [Business Resource Groups] across the board. And yeah, I just want to see more of that, continue and sort of lean into how best I can serve others and how best I can continue to be an active ally within my communities. So I'm excited.
00:20:30 Jennie Brooks
Thank you, I'm also excited and inspired. We appreciate you being with us today. Thanks for listening. Visit careers.Booz Allen.com to learn how you can be unstoppable with Booz Allen. Be the future. Work with us. The world can't wait.