Jennie Brooks, host of the Unstoppable Together podcast, talks with Doctor of Education candidate and Booz Allen lead associate, Marquay Lee-Pearce, about why you should stop using terms such as imposter syndrome and phenomenon. Learn how almost everyone experiences imposterism in the workplace, tactics to overcome it individually, and the manager’s role in challenging systems in support of talent.
Jennie Brooks:
Welcome to Booz Allen Hamilton's Unstoppable Together podcast, a series of stories that unite us and empower each of us to change the world. I'm Jennie Brooks with Booz Allen Hamilton, and I'm passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Please join me in conversation with the diverse group of thought leaders to explore what makes them and all of us unstoppable.
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Unstoppable Together podcast. I'm Jennie Brooks, and today I'm excited to be joined with doctor of education candidate and Booz Allen lead associate Marquay Lee-Pearce to discuss her research surrounding imposterism. Welcome to the podcast Marquay.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
Jennie Brooks:
So happy to have you here. Let's start by talking about the definition of imposterism. What is it?
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
I am so glad that you asked. I will be happy to share my definition of imposterism. Let me start with this. Have you ever caught yourself thinking or saying I don't know what I'm doing; it's only a matter of time before somebody figures out that I'm winging it? If you can relate to that, then you have experienced imposterism.
Or another example might be if you have found that you've been assigned a particularly difficult task and you get it done and at the end of the task you go wow, I was really lucky that I was able to complete the task. If so, you've experienced imposterism. So the definition of imposterism is the experience of feeling like a fraud, feeling like you are downplaying your own successes, not being able to internalize the good things about your performance.
Sometimes you might even think of yourself as feeling incompetent in some way. It's based on the work of Dr. Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes and their research at the Georgia State University, examining women in the counseling setting. So that is the definition.
A couple things I want to add to it, because I'm really passionate about the definition and I want it to ground us, and I want us all to be operating from the same verbiage, so a few other things about imposterism. It describes instances, again, where we might feel like intellectual failures despite there being evidence to the opposite effect. So oftentimes we are talking about high performers and it's this cognitive dissidence, like how could you feel that way when clearly the evidence is showing that you're a super star, a rock star?
What surprised me about this is that 70% of all people, men, women, will have experienced imposterism at some point in their lives, but they may not have had a name for it.
Jennie Brooks:
70%?
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
70%.
Jennie Brooks:
The vignette that I hear about a lot from people is the kind of going into a big meeting or a big presentation and feeling like surely they see that I'm not the expert, or I'm not qualified, or there might be a hard question that I field in this conversation that puts people... Losing their sense of confidence.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Exactly. Self-doubt.
Jennie Brooks:
Self-doubt. Exactly.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
So it effects men and women; however, women tend to report more. I know that we're going to talk about how it impacts in the professional setting, but women of color and members of marginalized groups tend to experience imposterism at a deeper level. Often it's brought on by family dynamics, cultural nuances, and just things like stereotype threat that we can talk about.
There are triggers in environments that bring on that self-doubt. For example, you brought up walking into a meeting and feeling like you're not the expert in the room. Take that instance and say that you're the only person of color or the only woman, there's a heightened sense of oh, I better have my A game, so less collaboration, more self-imposed expectation because you don't want to let anyone down, your family, your firm. Things like that can trigger it.
Jennie Brooks:
All right. So you've touched on that it sounds like it's more of a systemic institutional issue. How we address it from the institutional view... You've got individuals who are walking around with these experiences, some more deeply than others, or some reporting more than others. How do we address it from an institutional view?
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
First, I love this question because it challenges me to change the norm, and we're breaking that mold now. For me the first thing is let's talk about it. Let's bring it out of the dark. Let's give it a name and a voice.
So one of the things I thought about, and I wasn't sure if I was going to say it here, when we look at learning online you can find courses on emotional intelligence, you can find courses on time management, on situational leadership, but there are courses on imposterism.
So I think as an institution, as an organization, on talking about it, having shared experiences, changing the narrative around it, I think is a big get. Let me give you an example. Not to take us too far back, but we were talking about the definition and you noticed that I used the word imposterism.
Jennie Brooks:
Right, not imposter syndrome. I was going to ask you. Yep.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Yes. I am very intentional with that. Some of your listeners may be familiar with the term imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, but it's an untruth, and I'd like to tell you why. First of all, imposter syndrome has a negative connotation to it, almost like something is wrong with the person, but yet I've said the research shows that 70% of people are experiencing this, so how could it be a syndrome or something is wrong with the person? More importantly, you cannot be diagnosed with imposter syndrome. You cannot be diagnosed with imposter syndrome, so I want to get rid of that narrative around it's a syndrome.
Secondly, as I said, imposter phenomenon, that connotes this occasionally happens, but the research doesn't bear that out either. So it's happening to 70% of the people. It happens at various points. There are various triggers. Promotion can be a trigger. You become a new mother or a new father, that could be a trigger. You're handed a new assignment. There are various triggers, so it's not a phenomenon, it's a shared experience, and I think organizationally speaking that's what we can do.
We can share that experience. I would bet that our leaders, even yourself, have experienced it at some point, but may be not comfortable with talking about it, or not having the space to talk about it, which we have here.
Jennie Brooks:
Does the research show that there are typical triggers that proceed an experience of imposterism or-
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
I wouldn't say typical. They are variable, based on our cultural upbringing, based on education levels, based on just life situations, so it could be various triggers. Any type of transition could be a trigger. A word could be a trigger, or, "Oh, you haven't done that before?" Now that self-doubt is telling you wait a minute, I haven't done that before. Maybe I can't do that before.
The more common experiences that I've heard, envision yourself applying for a role. You read the job description and you go down... Maybe there's 10 requirements on there, and yes, I have that requirement, I have that requirement. You have seven of the 10 requirements. I can't tell you how many people I have spoken with that will not apply for the role because they don't meet 100% of the requirements. That is imposterism. That's that self-doubt saying I can't do that, and that triggers well, maybe I don't have the training for it, and I'm not asking for the training to go get it to create that opportunity for myself.
Jennie Brooks:
Right. I certainly have experienced many bouts of imposterism and I've learned over time to just share openly... In fact, just recently I've had a couple of conversations about this, and I shared openly with someone that I had been in a important meeting with key stakeholders and kind of walked away feeling like I didn't nail that as I could have, or lamenting something I may have said that wasn't super on point, or something that I forgot to say, or whatever the case was.
In the conversation I had with another meeting participant, when we were talking about it she said, "Oh, no." Like her observations were completely different, and so that's another lesson learned that I've had when I talk with people about imposterism, is just remember how other people see you on the outside. You're running through these issues of self-doubt, but they don't see that. What they see is someone who has total command of their content and their experience base and knowledge base.
What else would you offer to people who are listening who are either kind of working through instances of imposterism or who are our colleagues or our manager? How can we institutionally together engage in this dialogue?
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
I love this question as well. It takes me to... I can't figure out who to attribute this to, but I've heard this somewhere along my journey and it stuck with me. Feelings are not facts.
Jennie Brooks:
Yes. I love that.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Yes. Feelings are not facts. So your head will tell you all of these things. These are what they call ANTs, automated negative thoughts, automated negative thoughts. But, as I said, usually there's evidence to the contrary. So you can point to those instances in your life where you've done something really well but just haven't internalized it yet. Change the narrative.
I started with a little saying at the beginning. I started with saying have you ever found yourself saying, I don't know what I'm doing; it's just a matter of time before I figure it out? One active thing that you could do is reframe that language when you hear yourself saying it or thinking it. Instead of saying I don't know what I'm doing you could say I don't know what I'm doing yet; it's only a matter of time before I figure it out.
Jennie Brooks:
I love that.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Yeah. The highest form of self-confidence, which is the opposite of self-doubt, is believing and trusting in your ability to learn, your ability to learn, because it's all on-the-job training, it's all on-the-job training. So trusting in your ability to figure it out is a big reframing for imposterism.
Jennie Brooks:
I often talk about getting comfortable with the sense of discomfort, like being uncomfortable and always committing to learning. If you're in a state of continuous learning that sense of discomfort, it's still there and it serves a purpose, but it's a productive purpose. It's an enabler, if you will.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Yeah. And sharing stories. There's healing in storytelling. There's learning in storytelling. Not to go all academic, I consider myself a scholar activist, but there's so much research about social cultural learning, how we learn from others, which is why we naturally seek out examples, templates, mentors, sponsors, people who could help us figure it out along the way.
So I would say to my colleagues be assured that you're not alone, primarily reframe the narrative, and again, feelings are not facts.
Jennie Brooks:
There you are. One, two, three, you've got it. Marquay, let's talk about the role of the manager. How do they foster an environment that embraces different ways of leading, doing? How can the help acknowledge and get through instances of imposterism across their teams?
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Great. Thank you for bringing it back to something practical that we can really help our colleagues look at this from a different lens. I think awareness is number one. Awareness of oneself, who's probably experienced imposterism, so there's a relatable there, but also an awareness of the talents of the colleagues, because your colleagues are not going to be boasting about their competencies, because they're going to have that self-doubt and insecurities.
But oftentimes we know who the super stars are. We know what the level of performance is as a team, because they perform. So knowing the competencies, skills and accomplishments of your team, encouraging them to be authentic and acknowledging their contributions is a great step.
But also I'd say adhering to Booz Allen's core values, to embrace diversity, equity and inclusion, expressing empathy, seeking and providing good, honest feedback. People don't know what they don't know. Catch them doing something well and provide them with an opportunity to be even better if. So being supportive in assisting and skill building.
Encourage them to apply for those stretch roles that they may be on the cusp for and then share, share, share. As I said, there's power in storytelling. There's power in the shared experience. So the manager's sharing their individual experience and expertise would be great, as well as supporting and mentoring.
Jennie Brooks:
Marquay, at the end of every podcast we give our guests some free space to share their final thoughts. What would you like to leave our audience with today?
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Oh, my goodness. I would like to leave your audience with feeling empowered to have this conversation with yourself and your trusted advisors, your personal trusted board of advisors. I would encourage you, again, to change the narrative by discontinuing use of the term imposter syndrome and imposter phenomenon for the reasons I gave. Those two can be triggers.
Really take the time to understand your own triggers around what's driving it. Next time you have that feeling pay attention to it and ask what was the trigger so you understand it a little bit. Value your self-care, because there are a lot of tendencies for those people who deal with imposterism to be perfectionists, because we want to do it absolutely perfect. We want to get it right. That could lead to burnout. That could lead to job dissatisfaction.
So those are some of the things that I would recommend and also leave your listeners with, just reframing and imposterism, not imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, imposterism.
Jennie Brooks:
Thank you, Marquay.
Marquay Lee-Pea...:
Absolutely. My pleasure.
Jennie Brooks:
Thanks for listening. Visit careers.boozallen.com to learn how you can be unstoppable with Booz Allen. Be the future. Work with us. The world can't wait.