Dry mouth, knot in your stomach, trembling hands. You’re having a difficult conversation at work and feeling unprepared. Is this you? If so, tune in to Jennie Brooks’ conversation with Employee Relations Investigations Senior Manager and Mi Gente Community Director, Mario Martinez, who coaches you on his approach to preparing for difficult conversations, including how to deal with the emotional side of things, while drawing on his experiences navigating other cultures.
Who do you turn to when you need to have a difficult conversation in your workplace? At Booz Allen, our go-to is the Employee Relations Investigations team, but where you work that group or person might be referred to by another name. Whatever the case may be, you don't have to navigate a difficult conversation alone.
A trusted peer, manager, or other colleague might be your best best in thinking through how you want to hold space for a difficult conversation, or how to better understand how you can participate in one. If you use Mario's tips in this episode in your own difficult conversation, let us know how it goes!
JENNIE BROOKS
Welcome to Booz Allen Hamilton's Unstoppable Together Podcast, a series of stories that unite us and empower each of us to change the world. I'm Jennie Brooks with Booz Allen Hamilton, and I'm passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Please join me in conversation with the diverse group of thought leaders to explore what makes them, and all of us, unstoppable.
Hello everyone! Welcome to the Unstoppable Together podcast. I'm your host, Jennie Brooks, and today I'm excited to be joined by Mario Martinez, the community Director for the Me Center employee community, as well as Booz Allen, Employee Relations Investigations Senior Manager. Mario has been with Suzanne for more than 15 years and is a remarkable guy outside of the office as well.
Mario is a first generation American, first in his family to earn a college degree, and first in his family to work in a corporate environment. As if that weren't enough. He's also a lifelong martial artist who served as the United States national team's coach for Chinese martial arts for 12 years. Amazing. Mario, welcome to the podcast.
MARIO MARTINEZ
Thank you. Jennie. Thank you for having me. Very excited for our discussion.
JENNIE
We're really looking forward to tapping into your background to get your perspective and insights on how to navigate difficult conversations. And we also want to really tap into your experience in navigating different cultural spaces, to learn how we can incorporate cultural humility into these conversations. Why don't we start with you defining for us what cultural humility is?
MARIO
I'd be happy to. Jennie. So cultural humility from my perspective and broadly, is just having the awareness around the diversity around different individuals, cultural identity and backgrounds, the conscientious effort of being mindful of that aspect, navigating some of these conversations.
JENNIE
You serve in a very interesting role here at Booz on serving as our employee relations investigation lead. How has cultural humility played into that role? How does it help you engage in and navigate difficult conversations?
MARIO
That is a really good question, and I can definitely attest to having my fair share of exposure to having difficult conversation. Over the last decade within the investigations world, I would say cultural humility for me really started at an early time in my life. My first exposure to cultural humility began in my immigrating to the United States. I was born in San Salvador, El Salvador, immigrated to the United States when I was six.
MARIO
We were in a very Latino esque, cultured environment, and so we were very family oriented, trying to navigate immigrating and assimilating into an American culture was a big culture shock for me. There was a lot of exposure to things that my parents had never been exposed to, and so it felt like I was living almost two different lives, trying to navigate two different cultures.
MARIO
That created a large sense of cultural awareness for me, that maybe wasn't present for folks that haven't had that level of exposure. I would be remiss to also not add that my journey into martial arts was another major pinnacle moment for me in terms of cultural humility. I had always wanted to travel abroad and do what the best martial artists in the world did, and that was to go abroad and train.
MARIO
But in 2004, I had the tremendous privilege and opportunity to train with the Chinese professional team for several months in Beijing, China. And that just extremely opened by aperture to just what folks from a totally different culture to mine were. So that was definitely a major exposure event for me. I owe a lot to martial arts and credited to shaping my life.
MARIO
Getting the privilege to coach the U.S. team was another moment where I not only got exposed to really one specific culture, but I've really got to experience a true full world perspective navigating high pressure situations in different cultural environments. One example that I like to share often is taking the U.S. team to the World Championships in different countries, trying to help them achieve their goals of trying to vie for a gold medal was definitely a big exposure to a multitude of different cultures.
JENNIE
That's amazing. How much do you draw from that body of diverse experiences in your role today?
MARIO
I would say there's a lot of crossover. The way that you approach coaching is no different than how you approach many things in life. I would say to include employee relations, investigations and our topic at large, and having difficult conversations the way that you would develop a skill set. I would similarly relate having difficult conversations is a skillset that you need to practice.
One interesting thing that I'll share, Jennie, is I think athletes tend to focus on their strengths, and they always want to do the things that they're good at. And I think that relates very much to all of us as human beings. I think we like to do the things that we enjoy, and we tend to shy away from things that are difficult or things that we may not enjoy so much.
And having difficult conversations is definitely something that I would say doesn't really come natural, but I would approach it the exact same way that I would with coaching an athlete. You have to practice to get better at it.
JENNIE
That's exactly where I wanted to head next was to dive into difficult conversations and tell us a little bit more about that, particularly from your role. And I totally agree. I mean, who wants to dive into a difficult conversation if you can avoid it, right?
MARIO
What I'll note is that having difficult conversations is certainly a skill, but when you really break it down to its basic elements, it's a pretty basic concept. It's the same way that you would approach it from any other perspective on a skill that you would want to get good at. I always give the caveat that, you know, difficult conversations could really be defined differently by each individual, depending on what the subject matter is.
We're naturally more comfortable talking about topics that we're more familiar with. Some conversations may just come easier than others. As far as how I would approach it from an employee relations lens. Therefore, conversations, I think, are discussions where the subject matter can be challenging, uncomfortable, or emotionally charged. The challenge is navigating those conversations effectively so that communications are clear between those having that conversation.
One additional thing that I'll add is that it's extremely important to be able to have effective conversations, because a lot of the times within our role within employee relations investigations and within employee relations at large, they help resolve conflict, build trust, and just improve our relationships between other employees or other individuals. And it really helps with ensuring that we have clear expectations.
We're on the same page with the folks that we communicate with. The other important aspect to consider when you're talking about difficult conversations is difficult. Conversations never tend to arise when things are good. It's usually they arise from conflict. And so it's really important that we get it right. I think one of the most underutilized resources when preparing for having difficult conversations is preparing.
And this is probably my biggest, best tip to having difficult conversations is to find a trusted advisor to prepare for that conversation as best as possible. Know what you're walking into at least something down in your mind in terms of how you want to approach the conversation, and then seek consult from someone. I will happily share that my wife tends to hear a lot of my difficult conversations and preview a lot of my most difficult conversations in advanced, I of course, will give the caveat that you want to anonymize and of course not share any sensitive information in that dialog.
But I think the general consensus of your approach is something that you could easily share with a trusted advisor. There have been many a times where I'm driving the kids around with my wife and I'll say, how did that made you feel? What was your reaction to the things that I said? Was I clear and concise in my messaging?
Is there anything that I should consider that I could have done better? That is really sort of the starting point to improving how you have difficult conversations. How do you eat an elephant? Right? One bite at a time, and it's just approaching it and breaking it down into its most foundational process.
JENNIE
As part of that preparation. I would assume it's beneficial if you have some understanding of the background or the experience of the person that you're going into a difficult conversation with. Yes. So, you've shared with us many relevant pieces of your own story that if I'm going into a difficult conversation with you, might be helpful for me to just have some context of and better understanding.
And are there other strategies you have for tailoring the difficult conversation in terms of the person that you're connecting with?
MARIO
That's a really good call out. Absolutely. One of the really important aspects of having a difficult conversation in that preparation phase is understanding where that individual may be at that moment in time. A lot of the times we lose sight of the fact that whatever environment we have, exposure to that individual is not their entire world. They have lives, they have families, they have a lot of things that may be going on, different stressors that we really need to be considerate of and sensitive to.
I'll give you an example from my coaching time in coaching the US team, I had the fortunate experience of getting to coach a multitude of athletes who came from many different backgrounds and experiences. I can definitively say if I took the same approach to every coaching conversation with every athlete the same way, I would not have been successful in that role.
What is this athlete going through? How are they experiencing their world in this moment? Right? Some folks may deal with pressure in different ways. Some folks may be in a different moment in their life. And so, it's important to prepare and then also to set the stage to ask them, right, how are you feeling and whether the timing is right.
Timeliness is absolutely critical. The more time that lapses between connecting with an individual about something we want to have a difficult conversation about, the harder it is to engage in that dialog, because it may not be pertinent to them. It may not be something that resonates with them. The longer that time lapses. And so, all those things are major considerations to having successful, difficult conversations.
At the end of the day, we have to lead with empathy and just see individuals as human beings and understanding and having consideration for that. The other thing is you need to have empathy for yourself as well when you're having these conversations, because they don't come natural. I know when I started out my career getting exposed to more and more difficult conversations, it didn't come easy for me.
And so it took time and practice to really get to the stage where I felt a level of comfort and confidence in being able to stay engaged in difficult conversations.
JENNIE
I appreciate that. All right, coach, let's leverage some of your expertise here, wearing your coach hat and your employee relations hat, and tell us how to get started on how we can each practice engaging in difficult conversations, especially when you consider that backdrop of cultural humility. How can we start?
MARIO
First and foremost, you want to prepare, prepare as much as possible. That includes really putting some effort into considering what it is that you are trying to get as an outcome of the conversation. What's your purpose? What points are you trying to ensure are understood at the end of the day? A person may have their own perception of the discussion, but it's really important that you both have a mutual and understanding of the conversation afterwards, because that's I mean, that I think that should really be the goal.
And then in that prep phase, you know, I'm also a proponent of just ensuring that you understand the environment or the person, as you prepare for that conversation, do you understand the factors that may be going on with that person? Things that are going to affect the outcome of that conversation. This could be environmental factors, things that are going on in that person's personal life, work life.
And then I think it's important that you consider these factors when preparing for a conversation. I'd also be remiss not to also emphasize that one of the most critical components in having difficult conversations is timeliness. I mean, we hear that all the time. I think many times difficult conversations arise from incidents that occur. And the more time that passes, right, we tend to get busy.
Things come up. Life happens and it just can become far more difficult to have those conversations. I cannot emphasize this enough. And again, maybe this is from my coaching career. Practice, practice, practice. When I was a US team coach, one of the important components that I would emphasize with athletes all the time is the importance of mental preparation.
And so I would ask every athlete, if you had to divvy up performance on the basis of two aspects physical and mental. What percentage is physical? What percentage is mental? Without fail, Jennie, they would all say mental is more important. But then I would reflect that with them. Like how much time have you invested in that mental preparation.
And they would all say very little. Probably not to the extent that they were implementing physical acts or implementing exercises to improve their, their physical prowess. I view having difficult conversations in the exact same way. It's almost like that advent of like physical versus mental. And we all recognize that it's a skill and it's important. So, it's really important to practice.
You can navigate difficult conversations from experience to experience, but having a trusted advisor can be invaluable to really get a human experience to what it is that you are saying. To ensure that you're clear and concise. It's hard to see what we sound like or what we're trying to convey. And so, body language. A lot of these things are things that only an external party can provide to us.
And again, we of course want to be sensitive to not sharing anything sensitive that we wouldn't be comfortable sharing. But I think examples and scenarios are easy enough to, to, to pare down in a way to get that feedback. I would say those are probably the major components of having difficult conversations. It's really important to emphasize to have empathy with yourself.
JENNIE
I love what you said about holding empathy for the other person and also yourself. What does that look like in the conversation?
MARIO
We get very fixated on trying to ensure that we are sensitive to the other person's feelings, and we all want to be strong and confident, but I think sometimes it's okay to set the stage to let the other individual know, to say, listen, I have to have a difficult conversation with you, and I want to ensure that I'm creating the space where we're both comfortable and engaging in this conversation.
I think that sets the stage, and I think it also just creates a little bit of humility, for lack of a better term and empathy for both of you. And I think it also humanizes you a little bit. And I think it creates that environment of transparency, because I think one thing that I've observed is when you engage in difficult conversations, it can't be a one-sided conversation.
It you really need to listen, and you really need to engage in dialog. Not one way, not one way dialog. And so, I think by opening up that level of vulnerability, I think allows for just more transparent conversation and really building trust with the person that you're communicating with them.
JENNIE
Thank you. We may not always know the cultural background of the person that we're engaging in this conversation with. You can practice, but you may find yourself in sort of just an unpredictable state in in the middle of the conversation, right? When we have difficult conversations that can manifest an anxiety, it can manifest in anger. And for any one of us, like I'm Italian, so the way we manifest some of our, you know, our anger, our emotion takes, you know, sort of a it looks one way.
And, you know, at my dinner table where we might be more comfortable with that than if I'm engaged in a difficult conversation with you or someone else. Right. How do you navigate just the unpredictable component of where emotions might arise, in particular, if we really don't know one another and where we're coming from and what our experience has been?
What are your thoughts on that?
MARIO
That's a really good question, and one that definitely is one that I've considered and have sort of an approach. So, I'll, I'll let you in on, on, sort of an approach that I like to take, particularly when dealing with high stress environments. It's unavoidable that when we talk about having difficult conversations, there's going to be high emotions. Sometimes we may find ourselves on the receiving end of having to engage in the difficult conversation.
This is Mario's approach. I call it the 24-hour jail. And so that's very inspiring. And so that is if I feel like I'm not able to manage my emotions in the moment, I put it in a 24-hour jail because when we talk about having difficult conversations, the potential adverse outcome of not engaging successfully and having difficult conversations could be pretty impactful.
It can create distrust. It can damage relationships. It can have compounding effects that extend just beyond how we react to that discussion. I always like to take a pause and take a mental check of how am I feeling about this conversation? Am I feeling well enough to continue engaging in this conversation? Am I going to say something that I shouldn't say, or should I just take a pause?
And so, I think it's totally appropriate to take a pause. It's important to be transparent and say, I'd like to revisit this conversation when we're in a better state to have this conversation engaging in the conversation that are also being on the receiving end. I think it's important for, for creating that space, and it has potential to do more damage than great and.
JENNIE
Going to get better.
MARIO
Let's be right, right, right. And and timeliness. Right. Nothing's going to happen in 24 hours. And so that's why I like to have the advent of in my image locking this in sort of like a jail just to pause me, allow me to create the space and time to be able to be there. The other thing that I will share that's really important, and this is just a observation from my career in employee relations investigations, is sometimes you can glean a lot of really important insights in that pause period that will allow you to make a little bit better informed decisions about how you engage in that difficult conversation.
Once, once you've been able to create that space.
JENNIE
Okay, I love that. Thank you. So, we've talked a little bit about preparation. We recognized at the top that some people are just going to shy away from this. Right. What else can we do outside of the preparation and role playing to just and mutually right. Not just for ourselves but for one another. Create that safe space and say it's, you know, let's get comfortable with the uncomfortable and we can get through it.
MARIO
I'll preface by saying we need to be empathetic with ourselves, and we need to have sympathy with ourselves. I can certainly tell you that when I told US team athletes that when they were competing in front of the entire world, it's still difficult and it still can be challenging. You could prepare every single day, and a difficult experience is still going to be difficult.
JENNIE
Yes, it's still going to be difficult. Right? Yeah, yeah. And unsolvable. Yeah.
MARIO
Right. So, there's this advent in coaching that's called being outcome focused or being performance focused. If I took a board and I laid it on the floor and let's call this board being the width of a door, and we extended it 20ft down the hall, and I put it on the floor, and I asked you to stand on that board and walk to the end of the hall on that board.
And I say, how difficult would that be? I think everyone unilaterally would say, that's very easy to do. That's a pretty white board. I can just walk, walk down a straight line.
And then and then the advent goes okay. What if I put that 20ft up in the air. Is that difficult depending on the individual. Right. Some I myself am terrified of heights. So that would be horrifying for me. But I think most folks would say yeah that's still easy. Okay, what if I put that board 100ft in the sky?
Would that be difficult? Or would it be easy? And almost without fail, every athlete would say that would be horrible. I would never be able to do that. And I would always ask them why. It's the same physical feat. It's this, the exact same application. The thing that has changed is that you've gone from being performance focused, from being outcome focused.
And we tend to do the same thing when we think about doing difficult things, like having difficult conversations. We create fear for ourselves because we're afraid to fail, right? Because when that board is 100ft up in the air, in the sky, what if I fall? What if this happens? What if this happens? And we tend to prevent our own success when we're trying to execute very simple tasks.
Same goes when we're preparing for having difficult conversations. We could have prepared for that conversation a thousand times, but when we start being hyper focused about, well, what if I don't sound? But what if I don't say this in the right way? What if the other person perceives that a certain way? Things that are outside of our own control?
And so I think what I would share is when we're preparing for having those difficult conversations, I think it's totally critical to focus on just the practical execution of that conversation. If you've practice, you have to have a level of confidence that you've done all the legwork, you've done all of the work to ensure the success. Beyond that, you just need to be able to execute kind of what you put down on paper.
It's like walking that board 100ft up in the sky is no different than it being on the floor. A lot of the times, the other person is navigating that conversation in the same manner we are. And so, I hate to relate everything back to the coaching life, but I feel like it's served me so well over my career and my life at large that I would say, have the confidence that you've practiced.
You've made all the efforts to get you up to that point. From then on, it's just executing.
JENNIE
Mario, I think I speak for everyone when I say, I wouldn't mind having you right alongside as our personal coach throughout the day, navigating any of these challenges or difficult conversations. Thank you, Coach Mario. At the end of every podcast, we invite our speaker to share their final word with the audience. What would you like to leave us with today?
MARIO
Having difficult conversations is a very important aspect of cultural humility, and it's something that we will all have to do at some point in our lives, whether it be in our careers, whether it be in our personal lives. And so, I cannot emphasize just how important it is. I think we all recognize the importance, and if it is something that folks would like to improve upon, it really is important to reflect upon humility, having empathy for your self-awareness.
This comes from my coaching life. Just practice, practice, practice.
JENNIE
You heard it from the coach. Thank you, Mario.
MARIO
Thank you, Jennie.
JENNIE
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